Subject: RE: Which DUAL Licence should I choose.
From: "Lawrence Rosen" <>
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 10:41:40 -0700

Karl Fogel wrote:
> This is just a terminology question.

Not quite. 

RMS correctly reminds us that "intellectual property" is a term that
subsumes at least three different property regimes. The Open Source
Definition concerns itself only with copyright, but trademark and patent for
software also affect what we do.

The term "commercial use" implicates patent law in particular. So if you
have an open source license to software for which a patent claim is
affirmatively allowed only for non-commercial use, is that still open
source? The OSD provides no guidance.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Karl Fogel [] On Behalf Of Karl Fogel
> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 10:27 AM
> To: Tzeng, Nigel H.
> Cc: License Discuss
> Subject: Re: Which DUAL Licence should I choose.
> "Tzeng, Nigel H." <> writes:
> >Non-commercial open source licenses predate or coincide with the
> >development of what we now call Open Source licenses (mostly, I
> presume in
> >academia).  They may not be Open Source but they are still open source
> (as
> >in code is available).
> This is just a terminology question.
> The term "open source" (in software context) was coined as a synonym
> for
> free software.  I'm not aware of the phrase "open source" being in
> general use at any point before then to refer to software for which
> source code is merely visible but not freely licensed.
> Of course, anyone can choose to use the words "open source" to mean
> anything they want.  But this forum is hosted by an organization that
> has a very specific & clear definition of what "open source" means.
> The
> "open source" licenses this forum was created to discuss are licenses
> that guarantee a specific set of freedoms, including (among other
> things) commercial freedoms.
> So the inclusiveness you refer is not part of this list's mission,
> that's all.  You're certainly free to create a mailing list that covers
> the topics you think need to be covered -- if you spot common themes
> among independent software developers, and you'd like to help them with
> those themes, go for it!
> But *this forum* was not chartered for that.  It was chartered to help
> people understand and use open source licenses, where "open source" is
> defined as according to .
> It's not a matter of "inclusiveness".  It's just that you're looking in
> the wrong place for something.  We're here to discuss "open source"
> licenses, using a widely-accepted definition of the term.  The thing
> you're talking about we might call "visible source" or "non-commercial
> source access" or something.  If you start calling it "open source"
> here, that'll just confuse other people on this list, because they
> already have a definition of what "open source" means.
> Anyway, changing the names of things doesn't change what they are.  Now
> that you know what we mean when we say "open source", you'll be easily
> able to tell whether something is on-topic for this list hosted at
> "".
> I don't mean for this to sound standoffish, and hope it doesn't come
> out
> that way.  I just don't want easily resolveable terminology issues to
> cause confusion about the intended purpose of this forum.
> Best,
> -Karl
> >As far as whether this actually meets the OP's desires, my impression
> was
> >that he didn't much care if individuals used his code for private
> projects
> >but if companies wanted to use his code he'd like them to pay for a
> >license.
> >
> >That strikes me as a common theme among many independent software
> >developers that make up the bulk of non-corporate open source
> >contributors.  This is also why CC contains a non-commercial option
> for
> >content creators: Fairness.
> >
> >Is it really so hard for us to be mildly inclusive?  As I stated in my
> >original post, once you step outside accepted Open Source dogma you're
> on
> >your two guys don't even want to point folks in the right
> >direction.
> >
> >
> >On 8/6/11 7:07 PM, "Karl Fogel" <> wrote:
> >
> >>Rod Dixon <> writes:
> >>>I understand the desire to be helpful to the OP, but I think it is
> OK
> >>>- if not preferable - to say to someone that we cannot help you on
> >>>this list given your stated objective and the purpose of this list.
> >>
> >>Seconded.
> >>
> >>This isn't a list for helping people use licenses to do whatever they
> >>want to do.  It's a list for helping people understand what open
> source
> >>licenes do.  Even broadly interpreted, there are still plenty of
> >>conversations that drift beyond that mandate, and I think we can be a
> >>bit more vigilant about gently nudging those off-list.  (It's fine
> for
> >>anyone to privately offer a poster consulting help, of course.)
> >>
> >>-Karl
> >>
> >>>On Aug 5, 2011, at 4:30 PM, jonathon <>
> wrote:
> >>>> On 08/01/2011 04:09 PM, Tzeng, Nigel H. wrote:
> >>>>> My recommendation is to use the Creative Commons Attribution,
> >>>> Non-Commercial, Share Alike 3.0 license.
> >>>>
> >>>> You have got to be kidding.
> >>>>
> >>>> There are no points in common between the requirements that that
> >>>>license
> >>>> imposes, and the criteria that the OP listed.
> >>>>
> >>>> It doesn't even meet the "pay me a royalty if you sell it"
> criteria
> >>>>that
> >>>> the OP wants. (It is possible to sell CC-BY-NC-SA 3.0 licensed
> content,
> >>>> and be in full compliance of that license.)
> >>>>
> >>>> jonathon
> >>>> --
> >>>> All emails sent to this with email address with a precedence other
> than
> >>>> bulk, or list, are forwarded to Dave Null, unread.
> >>>>
> >>>>    * English - detected
> >>>>    * English
> >>>>
> >>>>    * English
> >>>>
> >>>> <javascript:void(0);>
> >>>>