Subject: Re: slavery and freedom
From: Thomas Lord <lord@emf.net>
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:59:51 -0700
Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:59:51 -0700
simo wrote:
>> You are seriously going to argue that paying workers is more
>> exploitative than not paying them, cēterīs paribus? Really?
>>     
>
> Yes, 

Wow!  Ok, so I get that I'm being trolled now, officially,
but that is a really brash troll!  :-)


> you cannot, as easily as a volunteer can, say no when you are paid
> for something.

Oh, my dear.   See, this is the kind of thing that makes me
think we need to go back to the good old days of secret
societies of engineers, and indoctrinations, and all that
stuff.   But... probably not so let me just try to sum up the
lessons of those earlier days:

When you are getting paid and your employer makes an
unreasonable demand there is a simple trick:  say "no".

If you get harassed to much for that then there is a
second trick:  say "I quit."

If you get sued for that, make a solid case to your
trusted peers and your attorneys.

It's pretty easy, really.

Now, you might come back and say "but you depend on
that money!"

How is that different, though, from the current
climate for "open source" volunteers?  y'know, depending
on career advancement and all?

>  Even if you think the choice is otherwise stupid or even
> damaging. True you can change job but that's a different thing.
>   

It's not a different thing.  Engineering is the fourth
column.  Learn to say "no".  Learn to recruit peers into
supporting your "no".


>   
>>> You may call these people stupid 
>>>       
>> I did not and do not. You are putting words in my
>> mouth.
>>     
>
> Ok you seem to imply these people are not able to recognize they are
> exploited and willfully keep being so. I think this means you think they
> are stupid,

There is a fallacy in your reasoning.   People are often
mistaken about their circumstance without being stupid.




>  I may be wrong, and if so, I apologize, but this is the what
> I understood from the way you put it.
>   


You were just committing that fallacy.

>   
>>> if you really think they are wrong, but
>>> they are certainly not exploited unknowingly and I do not see at all how
>>> you can equate their situation to the "battered spouse syndrome".
>>>   
>>>       
>> How about Tom Sawyer and fence painting? Is that
>> more comfortable for you?
>>     
>
> If I know the story (sorry they didn't teach all Tom Sawyers story back
> in Italy :-) then I do not see the analogy with the free software
> volunteer, except for sporadic uninteresting cases perhaps.
>   


Tom is burdened with an obligation to whitewash (paint
with a kind of primer) a fence.   A lot of work on a hot
day.

He spies his buddy Huck coming down the street and
forms a plan:

He starts whistling and dancing making like he's having
the most fun he's ever had -- painting that fence.

Huck asks what's up.

"Nothin'.  Go away.  This one's mine." - says Tom.

"Huh?"

"This fence is MINE to paint!"

"Hey, no fair -- lemme try."

"No."

"C'mon...  don't be an ass.  Let me paint the damn fence."

"Only if you give me some of your marbles."

"If I must...."

(Twain tells the story a little differently but that's the gist.)

-t





> Simo.
>
>
>
>   



simo wrote:
You are seriously going to argue that paying workers is more
exploitative than not paying them, cēterīs paribus? Really?
    

Yes, 

Wow!  Ok, so I get that I'm being trolled now, officially,
but that is a really brash troll!  :-)


you cannot, as easily as a volunteer can, say no when you are paid
for something.

Oh, my dear.   See, this is the kind of thing that makes me
think we need to go back to the good old days of secret
societies of engineers, and indoctrinations, and all that
stuff.   But... probably not so let me just try to sum up the
lessons of those earlier days:

When you are getting paid and your employer makes an
unreasonable demand there is a simple trick:  say "no".

If you get harassed to much for that then there is a
second trick:  say "I quit."

If you get sued for that, make a solid case to your
trusted peers and your attorneys.

It's pretty easy, really.

Now, you might come back and say "but you depend on
that money!"

How is that different, though, from the current
climate for "open source" volunteers?  y'know, depending
on career advancement and all?

 Even if you think the choice is otherwise stupid or even
damaging. True you can change job but that's a different thing.
  

It's not a different thing.  Engineering is the fourth
column.  Learn to say "no".  Learn to recruit peers into
supporting your "no".


  
You may call these people stupid 
      
I did not and do not. You are putting words in my
mouth.
    

Ok you seem to imply these people are not able to recognize they are
exploited and willfully keep being so. I think this means you think they
are stupid,

There is a fallacy in your reasoning.   People are often
mistaken about their circumstance without being stupid.




 I may be wrong, and if so, I apologize, but this is the what
I understood from the way you put it.
  


You were just committing that fallacy.

  
if you really think they are wrong, but
they are certainly not exploited unknowingly and I do not see at all how
you can equate their situation to the "battered spouse syndrome".
  
      
How about Tom Sawyer and fence painting? Is that
more comfortable for you?
    

If I know the story (sorry they didn't teach all Tom Sawyers story back
in Italy :-) then I do not see the analogy with the free software
volunteer, except for sporadic uninteresting cases perhaps.
  


Tom is burdened with an obligation to whitewash (paint
with a kind of primer) a fence.   A lot of work on a hot
day.

He spies his buddy Huck coming down the street and
forms a plan:

He starts whistling and dancing making like he's having
the most fun he's ever had -- painting that fence.

Huck asks what's up.

"Nothin'.  Go away.  This one's mine." - says Tom.

"Huh?"

"This fence is MINE to paint!"

"Hey, no fair -- lemme try."

"No."

"C'mon...  don't be an ass.  Let me paint the damn fence."

"Only if you give me some of your marbles."

"If I must...."

(Twain tells the story a little differently but that's the gist.)

-t





Simo.