Subject: Re: slavery and freedom
From: simo <>
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 22:51:51 +0000

On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 15:59 -0700, Thomas Lord wrote:
> simo wrote:
> > > You are seriously going to argue that paying workers is more
> > > exploitative than not paying them, cēterīs paribus? Really?
> > >     
> > 
> > Yes, 
> Wow!  Ok, so I get that I'm being trolled now, officially,
> but that is a really brash troll!  :-)
> > you cannot, as easily as a volunteer can, say no when you are paid
> > for something.
> Oh, my dear.   See, this is the kind of thing that makes me 
> think we need to go back to the good old days of secret
> societies of engineers, and indoctrinations, and all that 
> stuff.   But... probably not so let me just try to sum up the
> lessons of those earlier days:
> When you are getting paid and your employer makes an 
> unreasonable demand there is a simple trick:  say "no".
> If you get harassed to much for that then there is a 
> second trick:  say "I quit."
> If you get sued for that, make a solid case to your
> trusted peers and your attorneys.
> It's pretty easy, really.
> Now, you might come back and say "but you depend on 
> that money!"
> How is that different, though, from the current
> climate for "open source" volunteers?  y'know, depending
> on career advancement and all?

Oh dear, but you keep making up a case out of one of many reasons to be
volunteer, namely you say that all volunteers really want is a career
advancement, and nothing else really motivates and rewards them.

The silliness of this argument is so great that I am seriously thinking
you are trolling for the sake of it. Your previous statement about
trolling is actually reinforcing this feeling.

> > Even if you think the choice is otherwise stupid or even
> > damaging. True you can change job but that's a different thing.
> >   
> It's not a different thing.  Engineering is the fourth 
> column.  Learn to say "no".  Learn to recruit peers into
> supporting your "no".

I have left jobs that way, but that's because I am lucky and am in a
situation where I am not in desperate need for work, have no children
and can therefore afford extended periods w/o working easily. Most
people is not in this situation.

Now volunteers on the other hand really have no problems telling you to
go F**k yourself if you try to *impose* anything. Seen many many many

> > Ok you seem to imply these people are not able to recognize they are
> > exploited and willfully keep being so. I think this means you think they
> > are stupid,
> There is a fallacy in your reasoning.   People are often
> mistaken about their circumstance without being stupid.

Yeah I was mistaken in believing this was a genuine discussion, I found
myself once again tricked in a trolling scam, I apologize to all others
for doing so and therefore helping you fill their mailboxes.
Won't do more after this email, which I send mostly because I want to
apologize to them given your arguments clearly have no merit at all.